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Ken Wilber 

Ken Wilber, whose The Spectrum of Consciousness was the principal catalyst in launching the transpersonal psychology revolution, has been at work these last few years on a major new project, a three-volume series tentatively titled Sex, Ecology, Spirituality.

In an earlier interview on the new project (The Quest, Summer 1991) Wilber discussed Sex, Gender, and Transcendence, which was followed in our pages by an exchange of views on the subject between Wilber and Wendlyn Alter and others (The Quest, Letters, Winter 1991).

This time he shares with us his description of the stages of meditation. He also tackles the experience of meditation, which he declares is misleading, because the non-dual state of meditation is really also non-experiential.

Meanwhile, Wilbers first book, which remains a classic in the field, has been published in a new edition (1993) by Quest Books. A comprehensive study of consciousness, Spectrum shows how the psychological systems of the West could be integrated with the contemplative spiritual traditions of the East.


An interview with Ken Wilber


Q: We would like you to describe the experiences of the several stages. of meditation. But first, tell us about meditation itselfthe different types and how they work.

A: It is common among scholars to divide meditation into two broad categories, called concentrative and awarenessor insightmeditation. Or, actually, opened and closed. For example, lets say you are looking at a wall that has hundreds of dots painted on it. In concentrative meditation, you look at just one dot, and you look at it so fiercely that you dont even see the other dots. This develops your powers of concentration. In awareness training, or insight meditation, on the other hand, you try to be as aware of all the dots as you can be. This increases your sensitivity, awareness, and wisdom, in that sense.

In concentrative meditation, you put your attention on one objecta rock, a candle flame, your breathing, a mantra, the heart prayer, and so on. By intensely concentrating on a single object, you as subject gradually become identified with that object. You start to undercut subject! object dualism, which is the basis of all suffering and illusion. Gradually, higher and higher realms of existence, leading towards the ultimate or non-dual dimension, are all made obvious to you. You transcend your ordinary self or ego, and find the higher and subtler dimensions of existencethe spiritual and transcendental.

However, this is reaching the higher dimensions by brute force, so to speak. And although concentrative meditation is said to be very important, by itself it doesnt uproot our initial tendencies to create dualism in the first place. In fact, it just ignores them, it tries to bypass them. It focuses on one dot and ignores all the others. Concentrative meditation can definitely show us some of the higher realms, but it cant permanently install us at those higher realms. For that, you have to look at all the dots. You have to investigate all of experience, with detachment, nonjudgmentalism, equanimity, and crystal clear awareness.

Q: Thats insight concentration, or awareness meditation.

A: Yes, thats right. The Buddhists call concentrative meditation shamatha and awareness meditation vipassana, or dhyana and prajna. The former leads to samadhi, or one-pointed concentration, the latter to satori, or transcendental awareness and wisdom.

Anyway, the point about any of these meditation practicesand there are others, such as visualization, koan, contemplative prayer, and so onthe point is that they are all actually doing two important things. One, they are helping to still the discursive, rational-existential mind, the mind that has to think all the time, the mind that has to chatter to itself all the time and verbalize everything. It helps us quiet that monkey mind. And once the monkey mind quiets down a bit, it allows the subtler and higher dimensions of awareness to emergefirst the psychic, then subtle, then causal, then ultimate or non-dual. That is the essence of genuine meditation. It is simply a way to continue evolution, to continue our growth and development. It is, in a nutshell, the highest form and highest stage of a scientific developmental psychology. Thats meditation.


Q: Could you describe the levels of meditation, and how they are experienced? What actually happens at each stage?

A: When you practice meditation, one of the first things you realize is that your mindand your life, for that matteris dominated by largely subconscious verbal chatter. You are always talking to yourself. And so, as they start to meditate, many people are stunned by how much junk starts running through their awareness. They find that thoughts, images, fantasies, notions, ideas, concepts virtually dominate their awareness. They realize that these notions have had a much more profound influence on their lives than they ever thought. Whats more, many of those notions are simply wrong.

In any case, initial meditation experiences are like being at the movies. You sit and watch all these fantasies and concepts parade by, in front of your awareness. But the whole point is that you are finally becoming aware of them. You are looking at them impartially and without judgment. You just watch them go by, the same as you watch clouds float by in the sky. They come, they go. No big deal. No praise, no condemnation, no judgmentjust bare witnessing. If you judge your thoughts, if you get caught up in them, then you cant transcend them. You cant find higher or subtler dimensions of your own being. So you sit in meditation, and you simply witness what is going on in your mind. You let the monkey mind do what it wants, and you simply watch.

And what happens is, because you impartially witness these thoughts, fantasies, notions, and images, you start to become free of their unconscious influence. You are looking at them, but you are not using them to look at the world. Therefore you become, to a certain extent, free of them. And you become free of the separate-self sense that depended on them. In other words, you start to become free of the ego. This is the psychic level, the initial spiritual dimension, where the conventional ego dies and higher structures of awareness are resurrected. Your sense of identity naturally begins to expand and embrace the cosmos, or all of nature. You rise above the isolated mind and body, which might include finding a larger identity, such as with nature or the cosmoscosmic consciousness, as R. M. Bucke called it. Its a very concrete and unmistakable experience.

And, I dont have to tell you, this is an extraordinary relief! This is the beginning of transcendence, of finding your way back home. You realize that you are one with the fabric of the universe, eternally. Your fear of death begins to subside, and you actually begin to feel, in a concrete and palpable way, the transcendental nature of your own being.

Feelings of gratitude and devotion arise in youdevotion to Spirit, in the form of the Christ, or Buddha, or Krishna; or devotion to your actual spiritual master; even devotion in general, and certainly devotion to all other sentient beings. The bodhisattva vow, in whatever form, arises from the depths of your being, in a very powerful wayalmost like a volcano erupting. You realize you simply have to do whatever you can to help all sentient beings, and for the precise reason, as Schopenhauer said, that you realize that we all share the same non-dual Self or Spirit or Absolute Mind. All of this starts to become obviousas obvious as rain on the roofat the psychic level. It is real and it is concrete.


Q: So what about the next level, the subtle level?

A: As your identity begins to transcend the isolated and individual body-mind, you start to intuit that there is a Ground of Being or genuine Divinity, beyond ego, and beyond appeals to mythic god figures or rationalistic scientism or existential bravery. And this Deity form can actually be seen, approached, or intuited. The more you develop beyond the isolated and existential body-mind, the more you develop toward Spirit, which, at the subtle level, is often experienced as Deity Form or archetypal Self. By that I mean, for example, very concrete experiences of profound Light, of either a Being of Light, or just of extreme clarity and brilliance of awareness.

The point is that you are seeing something beyond nature, beyond the existential, beyond the psychic, beyond even cosmic identity. You are starting to see the hidden or esoteric dimension, the dimension outside the ordinary cosmos, the dimension that transcends nature. You see the Light, and sometimes this light literally shines like the light of a thousand suns. It overwhelms you, empowers you, energizes you, remakes you, drenches you. This is what scholars have called the numinous nature of subtle spirit. Numinous and luminous. This is, no doubt, why saints are universally depicted with halos of light around their heads. That is actually what they see. Divine Light. My favorite reading from Dante:

Fixing my gaze upon the Eternal Light

I saw within its depths,

Bound up with love together in one volume,

The scattered leaves of all the universe.

Within the luminous profound subsistence

Of that Exalted Light saw I three circles

Of three colors yet of one dimension

And by the second seemed the first reflected

As rainbow is by rainbow, and the third

Seemed fire that equally from both is breathed.

That is not mere poetry. That is an almost mathematical description of one type of experience of the subtle level. That is not just art, that is science. Anyway, you can also experience this level as a discovery of your own higher self, your soul, the Holy Spirit. He who knows himself knows God, said Saint Clement.

Q: And the actual experience itself?

A: The actual experience is.. . well, its sort of like this. Say you are walking downtown, looking in shop windows. Youre looking at some of the merchandise, and all of a sudden you see a vague image dance in front of your eyes, the image of a person. Then all at once you realize that it is your own reflection in the shop window. You suddenly recognize yourself. You recognize your Self, your higher Self. You suddenly recognize your original Self or mind, you recognize who you are. And who you are isa luminous spark of the Divine. But it has that shock of recognitionOh, thats me!

Its a very concrete realization, and usually brings much laughter or much tears. The subtle Deity form or Light or Higher Self those are all just archetypes of your own Being. You are encountering, via meditative development, and beginning a direct encounter with Spirit, with your own essence. So it shows up as light, as a being of light, as nada, as shabd, as clarity, numinosity, and so on. And sometimes it just shows up as a simple and clear awareness of what isvery simple, very clear.

The point is that it is aware of all the dots on the wall. It is clearly aware of what is happening moment to moment, and therefore transcends the moment. It transcends this world, and starts to partake of the Divine. It has sacred outlook, however it might be expressed. Thats the subtlea face to face introduction to the Divine. You actually participate in Divinity, and in the awareness and wisdom of Divinity. It is a practice. It can be done. It has been done, many times.


Q: Thats very clear. So what about the next level, the causal?

A: Youre sitting there, just witnessing everything that arises in the mind, or in your present experience. You are trying to witness, equally, all the dots on the wall of your awareness. If you become proficient at this, eventually rational and existential dots die down, and psychic dots start to come into focus. Then, after a while, you get better at witnessing, so subtler objects or dots start to show up. These include lights and audible illuminations and subtle Deity forms and so on. If you continue simply witnessingwhich helps you disidentify from lower and grosser forms, and become aware of the higher and subtler formseven subtle objects or subtle dots themselves cease to arise. You enter a profound state of non-manifestation, which is experienced like, say, an autumn night with a full moon. There is an eerie and beautiful numinosity to it all, but its a "silent or black numinosity. You cant really see anything except a kind of silvery fullness, filling all space. But because youre not actually seeing any particular object, it is also a type of Radical Emptiness. As Zen says, stop the sound of that stream. This is variously known as shunyata, as the Cloud of Unknowing, Divine Ignorance, Radical Mystery, nirguna (unqualifiable) Brahman, and so on. Brilliant, silvery radiance, with no objects detracting from it.

This has an overwhelming spiritual feel. It becomes perfectly obvious that you are absolutely one with this Fullness, which transcends all worlds and all planes and all time and all history. You are perfectly full, and therefore you are perfectly empty. It is all things, and it is no things, said the Christian mystic Benmen.

Awe gives way to certainty. Of course, thats who you are, prior to all manifestation, prior to all worlds. It is called seeing your Original Face, the face you had even before your parents were born. In other words, it is seeing who or what you are eternally.

Thats the causal level; thats jnana samadhi, thats ninvikalpa samadhi, and so on. The soul, or separate-self sense, disappears, and God or separate Deity form disappears, because bothsoul and God collapse into Godhead. Both soul and God disappear into the supreme identity. You experience a profound release, you realize the highest summit of your own being, which is radically one with Godhead. This is a direct and extraordinary experience, an altogether unmistakable experience, whether it occurs in Christian, Buddhist, Hindu, or whatever form. Unmistakable.


Q: So that leaves the ultimate level, the non-dual level.

A: Yes. In the previous causal level, you are so absorbed in the unmanifest dimension that you dont even notice the manifest world. You are discovering Emptiness, and so you ignore Form. But at the ultimate or non-dual level, you integrate the two. You see that Emptiness appears or manifests itself as Form, and that Form has as its essence Emptiness. In more concrete terms, what you are is all things that arise. All manifestation arises, moment by moment, as a play of Emptiness. If the causal was like a radiant moonlit night, this is like a radiant autumn day.

In other words, what appear as hard or solid objects out there are really transparent and translucent manifestations of the Divine. They are not obstacles to God, only expressions of God. They are therefore empty in the sense of not being an obstruction or impediment. They are a free expression of the Divine. As the Mahamudra tradition succinctly puts it, All is Mind. Mind is Empty. Empty is freely-manifesting. Freely-manifesting is self-liberating.

The freedom that you found at the causal levelthe freedom of Fullness and Emptinessthat freedom is found to extend to all things, even to this fallen world of sin or samsara. Therefore, all things become self-liberated. And this extraordinary freedom, or absence of restriction, or total releasethis clear bright autumn daythis is what you actually experience at this point. But then experience is the wrong word altogether. This realization is actually of the non-experiential nature of Spirit. Experiences come and go. They all have a beginning in time, and an end in time. Even subtle experiences come and go. They are all wonderful, glorious, extraordinary. And they come, and they go.

But this non-dual state is not itself another experience. It is simply the opening or clearing in which all experiences arise and fall. It is the bright autumn sky through which the clouds come and goit is not itself another cloud, another experience, another object, another manifestation. This realization is actually of the utter fruitlessness of experience, the utter futility of trying to experience release or liberation. All experiences lose their taste entirelythese passing clouds.

You are not the one who experiences liberation; you are the clearing, the opening, the emptiness, in which any experience comes and goes, like reflections on the mirror. And you are the mirror, the mirror mind, and not any experienced reflection. But you are not apart from the reflections, standing back and watching. You can swallow the whole cosmos in one gulp, it is so small, and you can taste the entire sky without moving an inch.

This is why, in Zen, it is said that you cannot enter the Great Samadhi: it is actually the opening or clearing that is ever-present, and in which all experienceand all manifestationarises moment to moment. It seems like you enter this state, except that once there, you realize there was never a time that this state wasnt fully present and fully recognizedthe gateless gate. And so you deeply understand that you never entered this state; nor did the Buddhas, past or future, ever enter this state.

In Dzong Chen, this is the recognition of minds true nature. All things, in all worlds, are self-liberated as they arise. All things are like sunlight on the water of a pond. It all shimmers. It is all empty. It is all light. It is all full, and it is all fulfilled.

*** *** ***



Ken Wilber, The Spectrum of Consciousness (1977). Quest Books, Wheaton, Ill., 1996 (2nd ed.).

--------------, No Boundary: Eastern and Western Approaches to Personal Growth (1979) Shambhala Publications, Boston, 1985.

--------------, The Atman Project: A Transpersonal View of Human Development (1980). Quest Books, Wheaton, Ill., 1996.

--------------, Up from Eden: A Transpersonal View of Human Evolution (1981). Quest Books, Wheaton, Ill., 1996.

--------------, The Holographic Paradigm and Other Paradoxes: Exploring the Leading Edge of Science (1982). Shambhala Publications, Boston, 1985.

--------------, A Sociable God: Toward a New Understanding of Religion (1982). Shambhala Publications, Boston, 1984.

--------------, Eye to Eye: The Quest for the New Paradigm (1983). Shambhala Publications, Boston, 1996 (3rd ed.).

--------------, Quantum Questions: Mystical Writings of the Worlds Great Physicists (1984). Shambhala Publications, Boston, 1985.

--------------, Jack Engler & Daniel P. Brown, Transformations of Consciousness: Conventional and Contemplative Perspectives on Development (1986). Shambhala Publications, Boston, 1986.

--------------, Dick Anthony & Bruce Ecker (Editors), Spiritual Choices: The Problems of Recognizing Authentic Paths to Inner Transformation (1987). Paragon House, New York, 1987.

--------------, Grace and Grit: Spirituality and Healing in the Life and Death of Treya Killam Wilber (1991). Shambhala Publications, Boston, 1983.

--------------, Sex, Ecology, Spirituality: The Spirit of Evolution (1995). Shambhala Publications, Boston, 1995.

--------------, A Brief History of Everything (1996). Shambhala Publications, Boston, 1996.

--------------, The Eye of Spirit: An Integral Vision for a World Gone Slightly Mad (1997). Shambhala Publications, Boston, 1998.

--------------, The Marriage of Sense and Soul: Integrating Science and Religion (1998). Random House, New York, 1998.

--------------, The Essential Ken Wilber: An Introductory Reader (1998). Shambhala Publications, Boston, 1998.

--------------, One Taste: The Journals of Ken Wilber (1999). Shambhala Publications, Boston, 1999.

--------------, Integral Psychology (2000). Shambhala Publications, Boston, 2000.



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